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Do Pro Lifers Truly Believe A Baby Is Created At The Millisecond Of Conception?

Pro Choice Extremism CliffsNotes

In my last post, I discussed extremism within the ranks of the pro choice crowd. Let's revisit some of those issues, before delving into what I believe are extremist positions in the pro life movement.

There are people in the pro choice ranks who don't want any time limits on when a pregnancy can be terminated. To them, abortion should be seen as a simple surgical procedure, literally, any time before natural childbirth. So, conceivably, [pun appreciated, but not intended] the action taken could go from elective surgery, to first degree murder, within a matter of minutes.

I'm not sure where the line is for such extremists. What if the mother's water has broken? What if she is experiencing labor pains? Do contractions have to be X minutes apart before it becomes a legal issue? Or do they feel that as long as the “fetus” is inside the birth canal, it's all good?

If the head is out, is it a baby head and a fetus body? If one killed/aborted the baby/fetus at that point, should it be legal? If it were done utilizing tools that were reaching inside the mother's body, should that be legal? However, should it be illegal if the act was performed by using tools on the protruding head?

That would be partial birth abortion. Right? As long as any part of the baby is still inside, it's A-OK for proponents of partial birth abortion, I guess.

Even though, I am technically pro choice, I have no qualms calling that extreme, illogical and counter intuitive. How anybody can go along with that kind of thinking is beyond me.

Pro Life Extremism

Yet, what about the way around? A very large percentage of pro life proponents say that a human life is instantaneously created, the millisecond that the man's sperm penetrates the woman's egg.

To them, a fertilized egg is the exact same thing as a baby that has been born. There is no difference. Stopping the pregnancy at the zygote (or pre zygote) level, is no different for these people than doing it the day of childbirth, or the day after childbirth.

The Morning After Pill Aversion

They say that taking the morning after pill is no different that taking a shotgun to an infant's head and pulling the trigger. Many go so far as to say, even before conception, just interfering with the process is the same as killing a baby.

Yes, even if the egg hasn't even been released yet, and therefore, conception isn't even possible, as long as sexual intercourse has taken place, according to these individuals, doing anything to stop the sperm that is in the woman's body, which might possibly get to the egg once it finally is released from the ovary and pushed down the fallopian tube, is indeed, to these people, murder in the first degree.

A Horse Of The Same Color

I'm sorry, but that is just as extreme as saying that partial birth abortion is fine and dandy, and not only should it be legal, but it should be available free, on demand, at tax payer's expense. These are both examples of extreme viewpoints that help to prevent people in both camps who could otherwise recognize that they share enough common ground that they could work in conjunction with each other to prevent so much abortion from ever happening.

Pro Choicers Who Are Actually Pro Lifers

This is a point that can't be emphasized enough. A very large percentage of pro choicers would almost never personally choose abortion in their own lives. They don't take abortion lightly, nor do they take miscarriages lightly. They are prime candidates who would be willing to work with pro lifers to help prevent abortions, if pro lifers knew how to reach out and communicate with them.

The Irony Of The Hobby Lobby Case

The company Hobby Lobby is celebration their Supreme Court ruling that allows them to opt out of Obamacare. The reason the owners refused to go along with Obamacare, and were ready to lose their empire1) is because they didn't want to supply employees with morning after pills, which is covered in Obamacare.

I'm certainly for any person or company that can get out of Obamacare,2) so I'm glad for them on that level, but I have to shake my head at the irony. If their employees could easily and quickly get such pills, they would be able to prevent conception from even happening in a good percentage of cases. In those cases, you can't even call it an early (chemically induced) abortion. No abortion takes place whatsoever.

The other cases, in which fertilization of the egg (contraception) occurred, would still be simply preventing the process from getting to the zygote level, well before it would get to the embryo level, well before it could get to anything approaching the fetus level. The idea of that being a case of killing a baby is simply extreme.

Even worse, the terrible irony of Hobby Lobby's desire to keep their employees from having access to morning after pills is that, no doubt, this will lead to many abortions, including some in the second trimester, and possibly into the third trimester.3)

Yes, it is best to never have unprotected sex, for multiple reasons, but it happens. It also happens that condoms break or come off. If women had those pills that Hobby Lobby doesn't want to help supply them, they could stop the pregnancy from even beginning at any level whatsoever.

Yet, since many women are not going to have the pills since they are not covered for them, many pregnancies are going to result. Some of those pregnancies are going to be terminated at a much later date, as a direct result of their employer's desire to do what they can to prevent their employees from freely attaining those pills.

Life is certainly ironic. Ain't it? The older this writer grows, the more irony he witnesses.

No Gray Area

The extremist element of the pro life crowd (which may be the majority) evidently have no problem with this. To them, it makes no difference if the abortion is done at partial birth, minutes before the baby is all the way out of the mother, or if it's done with pills minutes after fertilization.4)

In fact, to them, a potentially pregnant woman taking morning after pills is no different than a mother taking a gun to her one year old baby and blowing her newborn baby's brains out. It reminds me of Anita Bryant, who in the late 1970s said that giving a man oral sex was a form of cannibalism because the sperm that would be swallowed, were potential babies.

The Anti Birth Control Contingent

There is definitely a percentage of pro lifers who are totally against any kind of birth control, and who would love nothing more than to outlaw all forms of birth control, and put anyone in prison who practices any form of it. They would also put people in prison who have sex before or outside of marriage, and they would give the harshest prison terms to people who engage in homosexual activity.

The Wrong Kind Of Common Ground

These people are almost all Christians and Muslims. Do not, for one second, think that the extreme element of Islam is all that different than the extreme element of Christianity. The thinking is often, very much the same.

They are not content to live their own lives ascribing to the harshest of terms. They need to force their extreme and unwavering moral code upon every single inhabitant on the planet, under severe penalty of law.

Sex Is For Baby Making

They say that sex within the bounds of marriage is wonderful and that a man and a woman should consummate their marriage as many times as they want, but it must be traditional (baby making) intercourse, and there can be no birth control of any kind.

If you think that means the man can not spill his seed anywhere but inside his wife's vulva, you got that right. Neither of them can use their hands to bring the husband to climax, and don't even think about the wife using any other body part.5)

No Fun Allowed Unless There's A Chance For A Baby

The man should not use his hands to bring his wife to climax, because that kind of enjoyment is only to take part in the making of babies, naturally. Again, don't think about any other body parts the man might use on his wife, because that's not for making babies.

While it would be problematic to legislate, these people would like to see criminal charges against couples who engage in sex just for the pleasure. It goes without saying that people who engage in homo-sex should be imprisoned, (because heaven knows, none of that goes on behind bars.)

Hopefully this level of extremism is not too common. I really don't know what percentage of pro lifers believe in this manner, but I do feel that most of those who do, don't publicize it. They know that it makes them seem extreme. Gee, I wonder why they would feel that way?

What We Learned From Anita

I can tell you that Anita Bryant said that she realized that some people experiment with sexuality, and that people should not be arrested and charged as sexual offenders for only having participated in one or two homosexual encounters. However, the third time crosses the line, and goes beyond experimentation. That is the one where the punishment, that could be as severe as multiple decades in prison, would have been meted out in her world.6)


So, while there is a lot of extremism in the pro life group, there are gradients. Yes, some individuals aren't just anti choice, but are anti birth control, and by extension are anti gay. Others however, are not anti birth control or even against sex for the pure enjoyment of it, but some of those may still be against gay marriage because of a few Bible verses.

The question is, how many people who call themselves pro life, would allow exceptions to the anti abortion ban they want to see in the world? We tend to view things in black in white when we think about both sides of this issue.

We perceive pro choice people as all being in favor of abortion up to the day of childbirth, and we think of all pro life people not willing to allow a single exception, or as looking favorably upon people who murder doctors who have performed abortions.

The reality is that a large percentage of people who don't want to ban all abortions, would actually never (or at least, almost never) personally choose to terminate a pregnancy, personally. In a very real way, when it comes to their lives, they are pro life. To them, it's not a choice, personally – they just don't feel right taking the choice away from others.

The reality, also must be, that many people who would vote to ban abortions in most cases, would allow exceptions. And they certainly are not against birth control, or sex for the experience of what it has to offer, outside of making babies.

Non Extremists Can Work On Prevention

It is these groups of non extremists that I keep thinking can work together to drastically curtail the number of abortions. They also can work so that people who get abortions will do so in the first trimester, long before the fetus could survive on it's own.

What Is The Actual Goal?

Pro life people really need to ask themselves exactly what they are trying to accomplish. Are they really just trying to win arguments, and make themselves righteous, while making other people out to be murderers? Or, are they trying to stop abortions from happening? If it's the latter, than they need to regroup and realize their game plan needs some new strategies.

Would A Law Really Change Things?

First of all, prohibiting abortions will be as effective as the prohibition of drugs, including alcohol. It won't stop abortions from happening. It will simply drive them underground. It would not be surprising at all, if the prohibition of abortions would actually create a situation where more women were getting abortions than even before. (There is evidence that shows that is what happens with the prohibition of alcohol and other drugs, much the way, capital punishment seems to create more murder.)

Why Prohibition Could Make It Even Worse

It was estimated that before Roe V Wade, 7) ten thousand women a year were dying in back alley abortions. These were hardly all first time, would-be mothers. In fact, most of them probably had children, and felt they could not afford another one.

That means that tens of thousands of children, year in and year out, were left without mothers because abortion was not legal. Statistics show that, overall, children fare better who come from two parent households. No doubt, for many of these children, the father was already not in their lives, and they ended up wards of the states.

Again, statistics clearly demonstrate that wards of the state, fair much worse off, overall, than children who are not wards of the state. In fact, the rates of sexual and other horrendous abuse, are off the charts for kids who get placed in the system.

The Fact Of The Matter

Women are going to have abortions if they are legal or not. That is simply the reality. If you believe that mothers, generally speaking, should remain alive to bring up their children, you are working against that possibility when you try to make abortion illegal.

What we should be doing instead, is make urgent effort to prevent abortion, in every way we know how. That includes being open minded and allow for the fact that people are going to live lives that aren't up to our particular moral codes of conduct when it comes to having sex.

Consider This

For instance, we may strongly believe it is unacceptable to have sex before marriage. Therefore, we try to instill that into our children. The problem is, we often do it in such a way that let's them think (or know, as the case may be), they can not count on us for help or advice if they choose to be their own people and not follow our instructions. That can lead to abortions in our own families that simply would not have to happen, if we were to go about things differently.

The Importance Of Having A Back Up Plan

Think about how families are now telling their kids that even though it is unacceptable to drink alcohol, if they ever find themselves where they have done the unacceptable, then they must, at least agree to call the parents to get a ride home, and deal with what's going on in a calm, loving way, rather than to get behind the wheel.

No doubt, many tragedies are averted and many lives are saved, because parents are being more open minded, and willing to admit that their kids might make choices that are not in keeping with what the parents taught. If parents would take the same attitude about the potential decisions their kids may make in terms of their sexuality, a large percentage of abortions can be prevented. It's not just the parents of girls who can prevent abortions. Trying to prevent your teenage son from having access to condoms, in no way is going to stop him from having sex. Even if you are extremely religious, you can still have conversations where you say that if he were to go against your teaching and choose to commit the sin of premarital sex, he should not compound it by having unprotected sex.

But Wouldn't That Be Sending Mixed Signals?

I know that for millions of parents, such conversations would be like giving their kids the green light to do what they are trying to prevent them from doing, but in reality, that is not the case. Kids are either going to do what you teach them, or not. Showing them the respect that comes with them knowing you realize they are their own person, and are ultimately the ones that make their own choices, does not push them to do what you don't want them to do.

In fact, it's often the other way around. How many pastor's kids do we know of that rebel, either as adolescents, or as soon as they are old enough to live on their own? The stricter parents are, in terms of acting like their kids are not their own people, but merely extensions of themselves, the more likely the kids are going to be pushed into doing the opposite of what the parents want, simply as a knee jerk, rebellious, non thinking decision.

No doubt, many millions of families have not had these conversations with their kids, and yet, the kids did indeed take on the values that the parents instilled. It is my assertion that these kids would have taken on their values, even if those conversations had taken place.

More to the point, many millions of families did not have those conversations, and in so doing, their kids were not prepared to be more responsible, when they were in the midst of making choices their parents didn't want them to make. And, many millions, I'm sure, actually did rebel simply because their parents were too dogmatic in their attempts to control them.

Sooner Better Than Later

Another great thing that people on the pro life side of the abortion debate could do is to promote an environment where abortions can happen sooner, rather than later. Think of all the late term abortions that occur because teenage and older gals were not prepared to come to terms with the reality of what was happening. The numbers must be staggering, If a daughter had unprotected sex and could go to her mom and/or dad, and they could get morning after pills, how could that not be a thousand times better than simply trying to hide it until the pregnancy was into the second trimester, and then undergoing tremendous family upheaval after the daughter gets a friend to drive her to an abortion clinic?

It Bears Repetition

The fact is, in many, if not most of these instances where the pills are taken and no pregnancy results, no abortion would have actually taken place, because fertilization never happened. There's no way of knowing the exact percentage, but it's got to be a very significant percentage of cases. Of those instances where the egg was fertilized, stopping the process at that point just shouldn't be compared with a late term abortion, let alone the murder of a baby that has been born. It's extremist to do so. Moreover, if an abortion procedure is going to be done, then it's so much better to do it as soon as the woman realizes her period is late. Women need to take the home pregnancy test right away, and if they are going to terminate the pregnancy, it's much better to do it right then, rather than to wait months and do it.

I understand that pro lifers believe it should never be done. I'm saying, for women who are not of the mindset that they would never have an abortion under any circumstances, then they need to not put off the decision. Make up their minds quickly.

If there were more counseling that stressed that aspect, second and third trimester abortions could be largely curtailed – Especially if millions of other abortions were already being prevented altogether.

The Role Of Graphic Abortion Images

This, in no way, means that anti abortionist activists need to stop trying to change hearts and minds. They should definitely feel free to go ahead and show the graphic photos of late term abortions. That is effective, and important, but they should be honest about it. Also show graphic photos of early first trimester abortions. Then show drawings of a fertilized egg dying, the way morning after pills work.

They should help the woman have all the information, not just the data they want them to have. While they're at it, they should show pictures of condom packets, to illustrate that all the other images can be prevented from happening, except in cases of breakage or slippage.

If you want to make abortions illegal, just know that you won't be stopping abortions. On the other hand, if you want to drastically reduce abortions, down to nearly zero, there are ways to, at least, get on that path, which do not require making other people feel like they don't have choices other than the ones you offer them.

What About Adoption?

The choice of adoption is viable. It's just not the only option. Preventing unwanted children is much more viable. You can say that people want to adopt children, but the truth is, not all children are desirable by potential adoptive parents. Denying that reality does not change it, one iota.

The Dark Side Of Adoption

Moreover, adoption is all too often a for profit business and can have many seedy elements to it. Some people adopt children as investments, to raise them to send them into sexual slavery. I know I would rather prevent an abortion while preventing a childbirth that might go to a sick, criminal parents.

If your argument is that parents are vetted by adoption agencies, you are naive as to the reality elite child trafficking and elite pedophilia. Adoption, important as it is, is not a panacea.8)

Nobody Still Can Prove When Life Begins

Another matter to consider is the debate on when life begins. More and more evidence is becoming available that our spirit precedes our birth, and even our conception and fetal development. We have lived many lives. Countless people have recalled past lives, with actual historical evidence to confirm that the person they remember being actual lived in said time and place.

The fact that we live many lives, of course, does not mean that murder is okay. It does cast severe doubt on the notion that the spirit is created at the instant of conception, or even comes into the egg upon that time of fertilization.

People who have been hypnotized to recall their first moments of their identity in this life, tend to remember their births. They don't remember being in the growing fetus. This writer has found metaphysical literature that speaks of us visiting our developing fetal bodies starting as early 3 months, but it's said to be temporary, not where our spirit resides, until birth, when it becomes, “permanent.”9)

There are also near death experiences, like Betty Eadie's that speak of meeting spirits the person recognized as being guides and friends from before they were born, who told the person they continued to be their guides, throughout­ their earthly lifetime.­

The Religious Abortion Conundrum

Even if you are the type of person who simply rejects anything that is not directly stated in the Bible, perhaps you will find some solace in the following: Ask yourself what happens to the spirit of the baby who gets murdered in an abortion.

I'm guessing, you believe in heaven and hell. Am I right?

I'm guessing you believe the murdered baby goes to heaven. Am I right?

Let me ask you this. If the baby were not murdered in the womb, but was born and lived into adulthood, what do you think would become of her spirit when she died?

I'm guessing you would say, depending on one thing or maybe another (subject to your particular religious understanding), that either the person would go to heaven or hell. You can't say, but God will judge, and all decisions are final. Am I right?

So, it seems that you are trying to outlaw babies from being guaranteed a never ending lifetime of bliss and ecstasy and praise and worship – indeed, an eternal peace that passes understanding – so that they can come to earth, to unwanted parents, suffer who knows what all, and then potentially live forever in a lake of fire suffering unimaginable nonstop, eternal pain, with no chance of redemption.

Would it be fair if someone were to tell you that with friends like you, unborn babies don't need enemies?

Time To Fessup - Even Pro Lifers Abort Some Fetuses

Quite a few extremist pro lifers like to say that there should be absolutely no exceptions regarding abortions. They say there should be no legal exceptions whatsoever, including saving the health or life of the mother, or in the interest of saving the pain of the baby who doctors predict will no live more than a few hours of terror and agony, or for cases of rape and incest.

This puts the in a different category from a certain amount of other extremist pro lifers who do agree with them that a fertilized egg is the same as a baby, but who would choose to allow for one or more exceptions (as outlined above.)

Ectoptic Abortions

Interestingly, and tellingly, nobody in the pro life movement (at least that I have heard of), has stated that what a doctor does when there is a tubal (or other ectopic) pregnancy, is murdering the baby. Even the extremists who say that the mother's life should not be spared in an effort to try save the life of the baby, seem to have no problem with killing the baby in the cases of ectopic pregnancies. That seems strange. Doesn't it?

There seems to be two things in play. One is that the procedure is usually done in the first trimester, (often in the first half of the first trimester). The other is the fact there is nothing that can be done to save the baby/fetus.

For non extremists, those are perfectly good reasons for abortion, but the weird thing is, nobody tends to think of it as abortion. It is a health saving, potentially life saving operation, but it most definitely is an abortion. There is no getting around it.

Many religious, pro life extremists would, under no other circumstances, choose abortion. Even if the baby was likely not going to make it childbirth, the parents would pray for a miracle. Even if the baby would like die within hours after childbirth, the parents would pray for a miracle.

Even if the doctors told the parents that the baby would suffer tremendous amounts of pain, and not be able to live a fulfilling or long life, but would likely be in her own person hell on earth for whatever time she had her, these parents would pray for miracle.

Their stance is that if God doesn't chose to take their baby, they can not play God. If humans make that decision, it is the worst of sins, and it's showing a lack of faith in God's ability to produce miracles.

The truth is there are all kinds of medical miracles that astound doctors, who have to admit they do not know how they happened. These take place, somewhere in the world, on a daily basis.

Yet, there does not seem to be any of such extreme pro lifers who hold true to their assertion that any time a human makes the decision to terminate a pregnancy, they are murdering a baby – when it comes to tubal and other ectopic pregnancies.

Why The Total Disconnect?

If they truly believe that it's murder to play God by choosing abortion, and if they believe that God can perform miracles, then why don't these moms go into the hospital and wait for God to make the decision as to whether He is going to answer their prayers with a miracle, or if He is going to take His child home early?

Once the fetus bursts through and causes so much damage to the mother's womb that it would be impossible for a baby to live and develop in, at the point, they would know they surgical procedure really and truly had to happen, in an effort to save the life of the mother, and that God had made His decision. (In other words, they would realize that God's answer to their prayers for a miracle was, no.)

Going by their own logic, anything short of waiting for that is murdering babies, yet none of them are waiting for God to answer their prayers. What this means is that there is a lot of baby murdering going on, even in the most extreme of the pro life community. The numbers must be fairly staggering; thousands, month after month.

The bottom line is that they are not putting their lives in jeopardy in hope for, and faith of, a coming miracle, because they not only don't believe such a miracle is forthcoming, but they realize, at some level of their consciousness, that it's not the same thing as a baby, at that stage of the pregnancy.

Deal With The Gray Area

Pro lifers need to come to grips with the fact that there is gray area when it comes to abortion. They need to be honest with themselves that when they go into the hospital due to ectopic pregnancy, they are paying the doctor to kill the fetus before it becomes a bigger problem for them, and that they are choosing not to rely on a miracle from God.

Perhaps by making this admission, it would help them to not be so extreme, and to be willing to find ways to help people prevent abortions from happening, even if some of those ways go against their personal choices, whether they pertain to casual sex or even birth control.

Prevent Abortion Through Alternative Health

A conversation that may seem off the beaten path in an abortion discussion is health and lifestyle. The truth is that many ectopic pregnancies can often be prevented from happening in the first place, as well as a large percentage of miscarriages.

These things do not happen in a vacuum. They often are a direct result of choices and habits that people make, day in and day out, year after year, without so much as thinking about them.

Pro lifers who want to protect the unborn, should become alternative health advocates and change their lifestyles, eating habits and their outlook on conventional medicine. Diseases and medical complications primarily stem from cellular malfunction, which comes from nutritional deficiency and toxic overload.

By eliminating as many toxins as they can, and by giving their bodies only real nutrition, people can greatly reduce their chances of a pregnancy that ends in miscarriage or medically necessitated abortion. One of the worst toxic offenders people face come from the medicines that doctors prescribe, as well as the over the counter medicines people choose to take.

Virtually everything most people consume is toxic in some form or another. If you're not consuming organic, whole food, you are poisoning the cells of your body, and increasing the odds that your baby is not going to make it out of the womb.10)

This isn't just about being healthy when you are pregnant, and it's not just about mothers being healthy. Dads and moms whose bodies are comprised of healthy, fully functioning cells, are likely to conceive children whose cells are healthy and fully functioning.

Armed with this knowledge, pro lifers have a moral obligation to eat and supplement naturally, exercise, get sunlight, drink ionic, alkalized, filtered water, and don't take toxic medicines unless absolutely needed, and find alternatives to various toxic household and personal care products.

Of course, pro choicers who are choosing to have babies should also follow suit. The prevention of medically necessitated abortion and miscarriage, as well as the creation of healthy babies and parents, is certainly one area of common ground, in which pro life and pro choice individuals are able to share and work together.

Politics | Political Philosophy | Abortion

OK, it's not a Walmart empire, but almost 600 stores can be considered a lower case (small “e”) empire.
Obamacare was written by bankster owned insurance companies as a way to help take any savings people may have in the bank and transfer it to them. It is meant to accelerate the downfall of the USA, the economy and in so doing, accelerate the “need” for a one world government. Huge corporations like Walmart and McDonald's and many not so huge are exempted from Obamacare in a classic case of crony capitalism that would make the Bush crime family jealous. So any person or any company who is able to challenge Obamacare and be exempted has my respect and encouragement.
I do understand the arguments against my supposition. I just don't agree with them. Namely, one point is that Hobby Lobby isn't trying to prevent their employees from having access to these pills. They are only refusing to pay for them. I don't buy it. They know they can't legally prevent it, so they are doing all they can do by refusing to cover any of the costs. I'd bet the farm that if there were a referendum on the legality of such pills, they would not merely vote against it, but would donate big money to try to defeat it. The other argument says that for any abortions that happen from the fact that their employees didn't have morning after pills that could have stopped the pregnancy before (or even after) fertilization/conception, it's not Hobby Lobby's doing, since the employees could pay for them, “on their own dime,” (as the saying goes.) To that, I simply say, “If my Aunt Thelma had testicles, she would be my Uncle Thaddeus.” It's true. The situation will be that they couldda, wouldda, shouldda – but they didn't. Hobby Lobby can not act like their actions are not going to play a part in a number of abortions that are going to happen as a direct result of their position on doing everything in their power to prevent their employees from having access to morning after pills.
And again, to many of them, it doesn't matter if conception never even took place. They will tell you that it's still, somehow, killing babies.
Shame on you for even picturing anything as you read those words!
the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion in all 50 states in the USA
Well, as permanent as this life gets, i.e.
Or for those that are born, they are not likely to be as healthy as they could be. Moreover, parents should not subject their babies to vaccines. They can opt out of them with religious exemption form. After all, caring about unborn babies needs to be followed up with caring about born babies.

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